"Questions to Timothy F. H. Allen", Timothy F. H. Allen, 49th Annual Meeting of the ISSS, Westin Cancun, July 1, 2005, 11:20 a.m.

Timothy F. H. Allen

49th Annual Meeting of the International Society for the Systems Sciences, Westin Cancun, July 1, 2005

These participant's notes were created in real-time during the meeting, based on the speaker's presentation(s) and comments from the audience. These should not be viewed as official transcripts of the meeting, but only as an interpretation by a single individual. Lapses, grammatical errors, and typing mistakes may not have been corrected. Questions about content should be directed to the originator. These notes have been contributed by David Ing (daviding@systemicbusiness.org) of the Systemic Business Community ( http://systemicbusiness.org ).

[Group 1]

Talk emphasized how systems theory is so complex, and people don't want to talk about them

• Want to get simpler

Formal and natural language

What's the relationship between structure and function?

Allen: Structure is time-independent

• Am an anti-realist, but don't think can do science that way
• Structures exist in the world, but they don't exist in the world as functions
• Functions are related to the performance, but have meaning, that requires an observer
• The observer and meta-observer understand the situation
• Not an external reality, but an observer-observed interaction: related to experience

[Group 2]

Models: these models take a slice of reality

• Metaphors

Systems thinking, linking the narratives

Questions: mention about linking theory and how to improve things

• And practical application

Allen: as a theorist, about 3 years ago, undergrad wanted to do a senior thesis with him

• Can't do that, don't have test tubes to wash
• Either, are going toe to toe in discourse, or can't do it.
• In the beginning, a mentoring relationship, but she started telling me things about my research, and we became colleagues about 3 weeks later
• 20 years old -- doesn't know anything
• But, with theory, you don't need to know anything
• In biology, you don't know enough to say anything unless you're 35 years old
• Theory looks at somebody else's assumptions, and deconstructs narrative about what is important and what is not important
• Theory investigates assumptions
• In a paradigm, go with the paradigm and believe it
• Most scientists can do much harm within a paradigm

[Group 3]

Model reduction isn't enough to understand complexity

Can model processes

• Breaking down barriers

Allen: possible to take a narrative, and turn it into a model

• Then, no longer dealing with complexity
• Insist that narratives must pass through the model

Allen: As improve narrative, multiple narrative stories

• Lies emerge
• Scientists doing an experiment are lying
• Scientists don't have self knowledge
• You're not a predator or prey until you tell that story: that give you self-knowledge
• Do an experiment, and the world believes you or not.
• Progress in science is a 4-dimensional narrative

[Group 4]

Model validated by case studies, across disciplines

• We have computers, what do we compute?

Allen: Talk to your friends, it really helps, then you get an idea of what you stick into your computer

• Developing technical experience
• Hard part is working out what to compute
• Things improve, when you throw things out
• It's a social activity, and then responsibility for the decisions you've made
• Abstracting all of the time, need to take responsibility